Bumper Sticker
Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism and atheism exist. They coexist. That is a given. Its not a goal to be achieved. It already is. So, done, we have reached the promised land of diversity.
Is the status quo a goal? Is to simply not assimilate one group into another what we must achieve? To, in effect, do nothing. Because we already coexist. Don’t kill each other, don’t assimilate, don’t say one is better than the other….don’t do, or say anything…. and walla, we coexist. Isn’t COEXISTENCE a weak goal. Why not have a bumper sticker that says LOVE ALL RELIGIONS (and of course surround it with a bunch of religious symbols). Existence is passive. Love is active. You don’t see a bumper sticker like that because its too hard to love different beliefs. Some religious beliefs are repugnant. Its much easier to passively allow their existence in some far off corner of the world than to actively love what they believe. The more I think about it, loving something you disagree with is impossible!
I have no problem with coexistence because it is a natural fact of life. You believe one thing, I believe another and we both occupy the same space. You believe on thing about Christianity I believe another and we coexist. There is no unity inside each religion much less outside. So even if we all lived under the banner of one religion there would be the coexistence of diverse beliefs. Even if a supposed Christian nation killed off all the supposed Islamic nations there would still never ever be full unity of belief in the world. Because the Christian nation wouldn’t be full of only Christians.
Fine, let’s coexist. But we can’t say its all the same–that essentially there is no difference. Because if we do, we lose equilibrium. We lose all basis for conversation. The conversation stops because we have decided that blue is green that 4 is 5 and I am you—and that is mental oblivion. If we say that a car is the same as a boat we can no longer talk about water or land travel with any credibility. If we say that hatred is the same as love then we don’t know the right way to treat each other.
I’m more comfortable saying that ALL RELIGIONS fail to capture the entirety of the TRUTH Christianity included, than I am saying ALL RELIGIONS are TRUE.
I always want to ask people why they put this sticker on their bumpers.
Michael Halbe
March 19, 2009 at 5:23 am
This is some pretty heavy thinking. I never thought of it this way… I think I agree.
Susan
March 23, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Matt,
COEXIST??
Certainly religions coexist but not in harmony. Lions coexist in Africa with Zebras.
I am not certain the religions you listed ever coexisted in true harmony with each other. I don’t think they ever could and be true to their beliefs.
You’re right about not being able to love a Belief that is repugnant to your true belief.
I think you leave out one equation and that being Satan, the great deceiver and disrupter. Mankind will never have lasting harmony until he is chained.
I don’t believe that you can believe one thing about
Christianity and I another and call it true Christianity.
What you believe and what I believe has no true relevance to Christianity. The road is straight and narrow. You are either on it or off it. I firmly believe if you seek you will find and if you knock at the door, it will open. The true answer is the Word of Jesus Christ. (God Forgive Me For What I Have Made It)
Peace
P.S. I don’t think mc2 is relative in this discussion.
However it depends on your interpretation of the word
“is”.
Frank
March 29, 2009 at 10:25 pm
You are probably right when you say that no religion completely captures the entirety of the truth. I attribute that to the fact that God is a BIG God and our finite minds cannot fully comprehend all that He is. We will never fully understand the infinite as long as we dwell in the finite.
However, I think this big God has attempted to make Himself known to His creation. He has done this in the only way we can possibly understand…by becoming the “finite” in order to teach us truth.
I completely think that what each person “believes” has DEFINITE RELAVANCE to Christianity and EVERY OTHER religion. Try saying to a Mormon that Joseph Smith is not their prophet and see how fast they disagree. Try telling a Muslim that Mohammed is not their prophet…..try telling a Christian that Jesus is not the promised Messiah. What we “believe” is very relevant.
However, I am not much interested in “belief” because I can be wrong in my beliefs. Out of ignorance I might just believe that a buick is the same as a Chevy. And I would be WRONG. What would it take to convince me that I was wrong?? Who would I listen to? How would I discover the truth?? I continue to maintain that truth exists and our eternity depends on finding out what that truth is. Not based on fallable people and finite wisdom, but rather based on God who has made his desire for us to understand truth clear. Its my choice to maintain that that Buick is a Chevy…but I would still be very wrong.
Sandy
March 30, 2009 at 1:13 am
Amen Sandy! Well said!
I think this is where ‘harmony’ has a chance … when we can put aside what we may or may not ‘believe’ and instead accept in faith that ‘loving our neighbor as ourselves’ supersedes all other laws, doctrine, or cultural/social affinities.
The problem with the bumper sticker that Matt so fairly criticized is that it suggests that religions are in conflict as homologous entities in and of themselves. But no religion is free from the infiltration of nationalism, cultural bias, politics, socioeconomic tension or straight up ethnocentric prejudice. In fact every single one of the religions depicted in the bumper sticker is a reformed version if not the direct fulfillment of another.
I say all this to say that religious peaceful coexistence depends upon much more than religion to be realized than the bumper sticker suggests.
Miguel
April 1, 2009 at 1:49 am
Yes, Miguel, mankind is a flawed being, full of bias, predjudice, and outright evil. I completely agree and am unfortunately one of those people more times than I wish. This is why I maintain that the opinions of man are secondary to the opinion/truth of a huge God who is all powerful and just. When man looks to mankind for his answers to life’s questions he will always come up short…and unfortunately, often discouraged due to the differences in opinion and “belief.” And then when you combine the stated “beliefs” of man with the “flawed nature” of that same man, how can you ever be convinced that anything is right or true??
It is only when you search the character and truth revealed in the CREATOR of this universe that you see the big picture. It is an awesome search to try to discover the truth of the creator’s message and how it applies to me, the peon of the universe.
What I have found in my search is that this God desires to make himself known to his creation. I see Him in nature, people, circumstances, etc. etc. As HIS nature is revealed to me in many ways, I am compelled to act in response to what is revealed. For instance, unless I see God as a loving God, why should I love my neighbor? Unless I see God as a just God, why should I seek justice, righteousness, or anything else?
Yes, I think God tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves….but just prior to that commandment He tells us to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul”…….and then to love your neighbor as yourself.
Its that “loving the Lord” part that is sometimes harder to do than loving our neighbor. If I love my neighbor but do not love my God, does this make me righteous in God’s eyes?? I don’t think so.
I continue to propose that the search for the truth of very nature of God, and then truly LOVING that God will produce the needed change in attitude and behavior in mankind that you so desire.
And lastly, I think mankind is often UNWILLING to accept the truth revealed in God. Because to do so would require a CHANGE in the nature of that man that he is not willing to make. We are still often trying to be our own “god of the universe.”
Sandy
April 1, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Yes, I think God tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves….but just prior to that commandment He tells us to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul”…….and then to love your neighbor as yourself.
He also says, ‘and the second is like it’ and then states the golden rule. I think the question is, and I believe this is where Matt stands in some regard, is loving your neighbor as yourself, the same thing as loving your God with ‘heart, mind, soul.’? I think it is, for God remains abstract even within the frame of His presence through Christ. I have never physically seen God (or Jesus for that matter) and yet I have faith that I have seen their Truth. But what is this Truth without its expression in the physical world? Nothing. And then you make this comment,
Its that “loving the Lord” part that is sometimes harder to do than loving our neighbor. If I love my neighbor but do not love my God, does this make me righteous in God’s eyes?? I don’t think so.
And Jesus said, “What you have done for the least of these, you have done for me.” The question that may arise from this scripture and the idea you present is, does God discriminate between actions of love, is God more prepared to accept the actions of love committed by a proclaimed Christian than a Muslim, Atheist, or Hindu? If God is love, then is it possible to love others without simultaneously loving God? I don’t think that it is. The condition of loving one’s neighbor as himself and NOT loving God is a contradiction of terms, for God is Love. A man in his ignorance may love God and neighbor simultaneously … or so I am convinced.
Miguel
April 2, 2009 at 6:26 am
Miguel, I believe you are using an analogy similar to this:
God tells me to love my neighbor.
I love my neighbor.
Therefore, I love God.
I’m not sure this is an analogy that will hold up under scrutiny.
What about the person who does something good but has no thought or love for any god? I see good people all the time who would tell me their good acts have absolutely nothing to do with loving God. Many people who have no love or concern for God are capable of loving others–the above analogy is flawed.
However, when you love God first, the purpose and motivation for loving others comes from the outpouring of the love that has been first given to us and are now giving as an expression of love towards God and others. There is a difference in motivation and expression of purpose in this case.
You propose that loving your neighbor is the same thing as loving God because God remains an abstract…”even within the frame of his presence through Christ.”
I would reply that Christ is not an “abstract” in any way. He was a very tangible man. For those searching truth, he must be dealt with, just as with any other prophet. His claims require acceptance or rejection, plain and simple. His claim was that he was the “infinite become finite” in order to show us the path to God. He claimed to be, in very essence, God. If this is true, it makes God’s character much more understandable.(Jesus loved, therefore God loves). He also claimed that he was the only path to God.
Jesus said that in order to love the Father you must love the Son….
In order to love the Father, you must love the Son.
I love the Son.
Therefore, I love the Father.
Hmmmmm…then I would ask, is it possible to love God without loving the Son? What happens if I do all the good works/loving my neighbor, that I can possibly do, but I do not love the Son? Can I love God? According to Jesus, no.
Was Jesus a liar? A freak? Or a very tangible expression of God who was telling the truth? Seems that this must be answered before we can truly be positive that we love God.
Sandy
April 2, 2009 at 7:20 pm
I don’t buy the idea that a person in ignorance can love God and neighbor simultaneously. Again, flawed analogy as in the beginning of my previous writing.
Its been a long time since I was in “analogy” classes, but I know that your analogy won’t hold up:
Example:
It doesn’t hold up to say the following:
God says love your neighbor.
I love my neighbor.
I love God.
(Not much different from:
Mom says eat my dinner.
I eat my dinner.
I love mom.)
The following does hold up:
God says if you love me you must love your neighbor.
I love God.
Therefore I must love my neighbor.
Sandy
April 2, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Matt
I have read your blog about 25 times or more. At first I was disturbed, then I started to try to see what you were talking about. (I am slow).
While I was down in TX I showed a copy to my Pastor and asked him what he thought about it. He read it and said the ending did not make sense to him and was convoluted. That hit me because it wasn’t convoluted to me. So I read it a few more times. The more I read the more I agreed (as far as it goes). That’s what good writing does. so lets hear some more.
Looks like Sandy and Miguel have stuff going.
Peace
P.S. Susan is much faster than me, but she has to dig in in little. HA
I still stand by my earlier reply.
Frank
April 3, 2009 at 3:49 am
Sandy,
I took a logic course about two semesters ago and I must say that syllogisms were not my cup of tea, but you certainly have a gift of breaking things down logically … unfortunately (or fortunately) Jesus was not always a proponent of deductive reasoning. Of course he was an amazing logician when it came to the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and Lawyers, but when he said things like, “let not your right hand know what your left had does” or “lest a man be born again” or “lest your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees” he spoke a bit less rationally. How does one go about doing with the right without the left knowing? How and when is one born again? What does it mean to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees? These are all questions whose answers hold no logical solution. When Jesus healed they accused him of healing by demons, but he rebuked his skeptics by arguing, how can Satan cast out Satan … a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. But people every day and throughout history have healed and prophesied and shared great wisdom that of which was not done in the name of Yahweh or Jesus. Do they do such works by Satan or have they represented Veracity. If a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand and God is Good and Love and Just and Merciful than those who perform such deeds or actions, by whom do they do such things? I say they do them by God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, lest the Great Deceiver emulate that which is unconditionally holy, loving, and pure.
If a man lives in some far off remote land who has never heard the word Jesus or Yashuah or Issa (or however it may translate into any given language) and he does good, not because it is going to get him something but perhaps for goodness’ sake, has he worshiped the one True God? If not, who has he worshiped?
Miguel
April 5, 2009 at 2:18 am
Miguel, I believe you are using an analogy similar to this:
God tells me to love my neighbor.
I love my neighbor.
Therefore, I love God.
Is it possible Sandy to say this …?
God IS Love
I Love
Therefore I Love God
or
Therefore I am God’s Love
Miguel
April 5, 2009 at 2:56 am
Miguel, no I don’t think your logic is valid to say:
God IS Love
I Love
Therefore I Love God
or
Therefore I am God’s Love
Using typical logic statements, the above would read,
God is Love
I love (or I am love)
Therefore I am God.
Of course this would be false also! =)
I think the bottom line in what you are saying is that love can be “passive” in that if we love others we automatically love God.
As Matt mentioned, a true definition of love is that it is very active. You are right in that love is very much a “verb” and is demonstrated through our actions toward others. But I think it is possible to love others without loving God and it happens all the time.
Throughout the Bible, or history if you will, God has made it very clear that he is a jealous God and will tolerate “no other Gods” before Him. I continue to maintain that THIS is the greatest commandment: Love God. Of course He also tells us to love others and this is one demonstration of our love for God. It is a good demonstration and I don’t think we can love God without loving our neighbor. I agree with this thinking.
But is IS possible to love our neighbor without loving God. Your argument that we ARE loving God by loving others just doesn’t hold up under any argument.
I also think you have “put God in a box” (for lack of better words) by thinking this is the only commandment God is concerned with (loving others). God made many commands and directives throughout history. For instance, David was a man after God’s own heart, but he was also a mighty warrior!! Does this conflict with God’s command to love others? I don’t think so. I think God desires TRUE COMMITMENT to Himself, and the faith to do as God commands. Sometimes this involves being a “mighty warrior”….
I think if you look at God’s teachings you will find that our all-knowing God desires and demands devotion to himself above all. Nations who worshiped other gods/idols, etc. were DESTROYED. Yes, God is a loving God and calls us to love, but even more important, God calls us to love HIM above all. Nations who don’t are in grave danger of judgment….remember, another of God’s attributes is that he is JUST.
So, you ask, “Why can’t we all just coexist peacefully?” Look at history and you will see the answer.
Moving on to your thoughts that Jesus spoke somewhat irrationally…..I don’t think so. Jesus spoke in parables. He told stories that illustrated truths. We might call these “object lessons” today. The questions you brought up most certainly have logical solutions….
For instance, “Let not your right hand know what the left has done.” This is a direct reference to not doing your good deeds in order to receive recognition from others…or this is the only reward you will receive. The good deeds God asks of us are those which will please HIM, and are not done for the recognition of others.
We could go on and on with this line of talk, but this particular parable teaching is related to my point.
And so what about those who do good things without a knowledge of God? Who do they worship? Perhaps they need to learn about a true God who loves them and in who’s image they are made…. many are called to tell them, but few will go.
More later, I must think about all these things!! I enjoy the dialog and hope we can continue…you too, Matt! Have a wonderful day, Miguel and Matt. Keep writing.
Sandy
April 20, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Well, after finally going through these statements a couple of times. I think it affirms by original point that neither Miguel or Sandy, or Bepa … or Me or anyone else has a complete understand of the absolute characteristics of God. So then the thinking in my mind is… if we don’t know for sure who God is… then how can we worship him?
I dislike your line of thinking Sandy. You tell me, is there anything unGodly about love? Or is there anything unloving about God (genocide, wrath etc)? Is there a contradiction between God in the New Testament and God of the Old? I don’t think I really want to open up that conversation. But its certainly something I think about.
If someone loves, truly, genuinely and compassionately, they are acting in a Godly way. Plain and simple… it doesn’t matter what they say about their religion. If they love yet worship a green tree frog. And you don’t love but worship the God of Abraham Issac, Jacob, Moses and Jesus, which is more Godly?
If some one CAN love, then something is happening between them and God.
Me personally, I’m not gonna say I’m full of love for humanity. I’m not going to say that I worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Joseph. Those statements about myself… or about anyone else would be subject to my faulty judgement and my finite understanding.
Matt
April 23, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Only have a min. but want to reply to a few things:
1. You are right, Matt, none of us completely understands the absolute characteristics of God. But this does NOT mean we can’t be sure of who God is. I think of it this way: God is too big, too powerful, and beyond my ability to completely understand him. He is infinite and timeless….I am finite and bound by time. BUT….. God has made himself known to me in many ways, and I believe it is His desire to make himself known to all of mankind.
I’m not sure where you stand on the validity of the Bible…and if its something that you do not think is valid then this conversation leads to nothing. It is amusing to me how the Bible is quoted over and over and over….and yet in the next statement it is criticized as being contradictory or lacking truth. The Bible and its message is either true or it isn’t…and if it is false, then alot of people are making fools of themselves by quoting it and taking a sentence here and there (often out of context) and pretending they know who God is or how they are supposed to live. The Bible is either entirely true, or its some twisted fairy tale–if its false, then stop quoting it and move on to something that CAN be proven to be true. Like I’ve said, I’m looking for truth. Hypocricy is taking a piece here and there as “true” and rejecting the rest. The Bible has a clear message, and rejecting it means rejecting the messenger as well as the message. I would rather see people say they reject the entire thing and move on to something else they say is true instead…than to quote it here and there as valid and reject the rest.
With that said, I will say that I believe the Bible to be true. I may not know EVERYTHING there is to know about God, and actually never can know all there is to know about him….but if you read the Bible in its entirety you will see that there is no contradiction whatsoever throughout its message. None. God has MADE HIMSELF KNOWN to mankind since creation. READ THE BIBLE and show me one place where God has not attempted to make mankind aware of his presence and plans….
It is MANKIND that has rejected God,not the other way around. Because we may not like the “rules” or God’s method of doing things….because WE want to make our own rules or do things our own way, we then reject what we don’t like and make our own rules and say they are “God’s.” This is putting God in a box and limiting him to “God is love” and saying that’s all there is to him.
Well, I submit to you that it is in your best interest to keep searching for the truth you seek. I truly think God wants you to know him…but God isn’t going to change who he is or what his plans are because we don’t understand, or REFUSE to.
No, Matt, there is nothing ungodly about love, We are made in God’s image, and therefore capable of love. When we love we are acting in a “godly way” because this is how we are created. But if you study the Bible you will see that THROUGHOUT the Bible God commands that our worship be for HIM AND HIM ALONE. Out of that love for God flows love for our brother. NEVER are we told to love the creation over the creator. This is a lie. I think we are supposed to love “the creation” out of a deep love for “the creator” who made it!
But then if you reject the God of the Bible, then I ask you what God are YOU worshiping??? A God that tells you that your whole existence and value stems on whether you love your brother or not??? OK, if that is so, what happens when you hate your brother?? What are the consequences of that?? Doomed to hell?? Because I certainly can’t say that I love my brother all the time..and neither can anyone else.
I see my God as one who tells me to worship HIM above all creation and out of that love for him, he will CHANGE ME AND MOLD ME into the person he wants me to be. I see the example he set for me in Jesus Christ…the ultimate example of laying one’s life down for his brother…me. I see forgiveness and compassion when I blow it (and I do) and ultimately the promise of eternal life. I could not love my brother if I did not know the ultimate love of God as demonstrated in Jesus Christ. NO OTHER GOD IN THE WORLD PROMISES OR DEMONSTRATES THIS KIND OF LOVE, MATT…NONE. This God offers his love to you…a love that you and many others reject. You know who this God is, Matt…you’ve studied enough to understand this God enough to either accept or reject him. Don’t say you can’t know who he is…he has made himself known to you…call it like it is and say you just reject what he offers.
More later…keep writing! =)
Sandy
April 24, 2009 at 3:18 pm